Can a newbie critique an image by a seasoned professional?

[Driftwood]

I am new here and I just finished reading "An observation and advice for new photographers and models to the forum" posted by Brattitude, so I thought I would take some of Toni's advice and put a little work into contributing to the forum with a few questions.

An item that particularly interested me in that thread was in the reply from Jacki M ("Here,Here")

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I didn't critique anyone's work-especially not the seasoned pros (I still don't dare do that!) If I had, I would have fully expected some very negative feedback....

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I understand this completely. - I feel the same way. - From comments I have read in other posts I suspect that it is fairly common.

The thing is, I also read a post from Mike Hickey ("So who did we lose?") and in one of his responses to a reply he says:
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The interesting thing is I have posted many in the past that bugged me and no one said a word, not one comment. That could mean a lot of things or nothing.

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So my questions are:

How many of us refrain from commenting on the images of the "seasoned professionals"?

and to all the "Seasoned Professionals" out there:

Did you know that you were held in such awe that many people are not prepared to make a critical comment on your work?

Would you want to hear the views of the rest of us? Would it be impolite to comment, or are we in fact being impolite by not commenting?

Any thoughts?.......

[DarkLeather]

My take on it, as a seasoned forum member, but very much a nephyte photographer, is that there is nobody on this forum, even the actual honest-to-goodness pros with national reputations and everything, who isn't looking to improve. Your opinion is as valid as everyone else's; if you think a posted image could be improved, say so! I'm actually trying to do more commenting myself...
--Sam

[hicspix]

While I don't particularly consider myself a "seasoned pro" -- even though my primary source of income for 30-plus years has been in photography -- your post caught my eye so you get my response.

My feeling is that I welcome anyone's take on what I post, regardless of whether the camera has been around their neck a day or a decade. Naturally, it still comes down to we how much weight I put on any critique -- but it's extremely rare that I'll ever completely dismiss anyone's opinion. And that usually has very little to do with their own personal experience in the field and more if I see a trend in their responses ... an agenda if you will.

So for my part, fire away any time you care to. It's a public forum and, to me, it's just plain foolish to post and not expect and desire to hear folks take on my work ... both pro and con.

It's all about others reaction, perception and input that keep each of our own personal image-barometers in check. And when it comes down to it, that's also the only way we continue to grow and learn. Whether we've just shot our 10th frame or 1,000,000th. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

My view on it anyway.

Dave

[Bobby_G]

I think absolutely YES...it can help the "pro" and the "newb". When we decide to critique an image we SHOULD be putting some thought into what we are trying to relay to the author of the image. Most of the pros in my opinion here welcome critiques...even from an "untrained eye". I think the reason some "newbs" do not critique, is because one of the rules of critiquing states you must post an image of your own to show an example of your work. I think a lot of us may be intimidated to comment on an image and then post an image that we feel is not as strong as the image we critique. I know when I first began critiquing it was a concern of mine.

I am NOT a pro...probably never will be...but I have become addicted with this thing we call photography. My career allows me to spend a lot of time on the boards and a lot of time shooting and THIS SITE is one of the main reasons I have improved as quickly as I have.

Here are a few things I have noticed since I joined 10 months ago.

* It has been said you must know the rules before it is acceptable to BREAK the rules...and I agree. Many times "the newb" will post an image with a foot or hand cut off and get the "it's distracting" or "it leads my eye there" comment...YET, when a pro commits the same error, it is overlooked because "it was planned". I believe that comes with "paying the dues". I have PURPOSELY captured an image with a body part cutoff...a foot... a hand...part of the head...and posted here only to get NUMEROUS replies telling me it's distracting. I have seen "the pro's" post a similar image and not a single comment made about the same error. THEY HAVE EARNED RESPECT, I haven't...so do I (the newb) get pissed?? Do I (the newb) make snide remarks about the subject?? No...we work to get better and EARN THE SAME RESPECT we have for the pro's.

There will be times when we critique an image as we see it and offer a suggestion, but the author captured the image JUST AS HE/SHE intended...that is the subjectivity of photography...we ALL won't like the same lighting, composition, pose etc....sometimes we have to agree to disagree, BUT absorb THEIR feedback as to why they did what they did relative to that image...

I WISH I could shoot swimsuits like Andy and Allen...
I WISH I could shoot B&W headshots like JT
I WISH I had DK's INCREDIBLE vision
I WISH I was married to Kelly G...( not really, I wouldn't trade my wife for anything, but I was on a roll [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

It was VERY difficult for me to critique one of their images early on because of my respect for their work and KNOWING that my skills are far below theirs. But now having somewhat of a "internet relationship" with these guys, I wouldn't hesitate to critique their image because much of what I have learned CAME FROM THEM...either by their words, critiques or images they have posted.

I will say this in critiquing...and this is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. If you critique an image and point out a certain "issue"...PLEASE don't post an example with the same flaw. That DOES irritate me when someone says "OK image, but you gotta watch those fly away hairs:...then the image they post has fly aways for days....

My personal opinion is that when I decide to critique someone elses image, I become a better photographer because I am STUDYING that image...I think I overlook things in MY images because I took it and I have a sense of pride about the image that may not allow me to be as subjective as I need to be...

[RSStory]

I started critiqueing the pros the day I arrived here and believe me in comparison to now I really sucked then. I will tell you what I got out of it. First, I learned alot by studying the images and asking myself, how the heck did they do that? I learned what I like and what I dont. I learned who here can take the critique in the spirit that it was intended and who cant. And most importantly I made some friends that have invested a lot of time and effort to helping me become a better photographer. Sometimes my shots are strong and sometimes they arent but every time I post one I get those critiques and I learn from them. I listen to what people say even if they are not an experienced photographer. So post and critique often. Even if you dont feel qualified to do so. You will learn much faster.

Scott

[jtsmith]

Everyone needs to understand it's talking shop. Yes, anyone should be able to critique. However, it seems or can be assumed that those critiques are personal attacks.

I hate the rule that everyone has to post an image just to critique.

If you pay attention enough you will also notice a few top shooters say thank you for your input and move on. They don't try and qualify the person giving the critique.

Without posting an image, anyone can critique my work and I am not going to necessarily qualify the critic. In fact I put work out there for everyone to do just that as a learning tool.

Furthermore, I have slowed down drastically in giving critiques lately. I've been called out a couple times to give them and that has been the only reason I have made comments to images recently.

J T

[JackiM]

You joined a couple a months ago and you area regular participant here. You have been here long enough to know who is who and what is going on. If you want to critique the pros, then go ahead, but I think it would wiser to ask why and how they did what they did instead of telling them they should have done this instead of that because once someone has been doing something for a while, they usually have a reason for it and can explain it. There are many different styles of photography so you can't look at one style and say, they should all be like that. I love when someone just registers and posts the same day asking one of the masters- why did you cut her head off?....AAAARRRRGGGG! It happens ALL the time. There are people who come here with no portfolio, no knowledge of photography or modeling and no respect for people who have been successful working professionals in this business for many years. That is what I meant in my post. I hope you understand that I don't consider you a newbie anymore. I haven't seen any negative posts from you either. When you ask to learn, that is always good

This picture for instance taken by Robert Sanders has been negatively critiqued only by newbies-as in joined yesterday and have either no portfolio or bad portfolios-they have said they don't like the shadow under the hat and my eyes should have been lit. Well if my eyes had been lit, then the drama and mystery would be removed from the picture. The shadow is intentional! They have also said it sould be zoomed out to get the whole bar....WHAT???? That would ruin the mood too. They have said they don't like the lighting or the angle also and the background is busy....That is what is irritating! ALL of those critiques are worthless and evidence of someone who has no idea how to use lighting to create a story in an image. If these people don't understand this pic, then they should ask Robert (politely) why he did what he did here instead of arrrogantly saying he should have done it another way.

[glennusdin]

Guess what, you can write just about anything you want and I'll still think you are the best!

Critiques are very tough business. Take the case in point, the image you posted!

I love YOU (damn if we ever meet!) but I don't think this is the best image of you I have ever seen.

I admire Roberts work and can't wait to meet him. He is on my very short list of shooters that I say on a regular basis, "Damn, I wish I thought of that!"

It's a cool image, and its not in my nature to tear it apart. I respect the shooter and the model enough to say that if it is what they wanted (hopefully) then that is good enough for me.

I do disagree with you on one point.

Its OK for anyone, including the newbies, to critique an image. None of those critques you mentioned by the newbies are worthless. Actually they probably mean more than the ones by the veterans.

Why you ask? (PLEASE don't hate me) The people we (commercial shooters) shoot for are NOT the other photogs or models. We shoot for mass appeal. IF THEY (the audience) likes the image, then thats more important than if a bunch of picky photogs or even the models like the image. If THEY get it, thats what matters.

If THEY don't get it, no matter how technically qualified or skillful the photog is, it doesn't matter how hard it was to capture the image or how great we think it is. If they don't get the story, its not there.

When I show images around the studio, everyone on the team comes around and high fives..good job Glenn! YEA We DID GREAT!!!!!!!!!! Awesome make-up, awesome model, awesome styling, awesome lighting, awesome this awesome that! WOW!!!!

Then my wife walks in and says its crappy or just OK. The wind gets knocked right out of our sails.

Guess what, she don't know a damn thing about lighting and angles and digital capture and all the technical [censored]. If the image don't click with her..it sucks and she doesn't kiss any butt.

So honestly, those newbies might be on to something big time. They don't know a name from an ass, but they know if they like something. I truly care more about the non-pros and what they think. When the non-pros like your stuff..then you got a good thing going.

Deference to experience is cool, but not if it keeps people from saying the truth.

[RoshGlamour]

God, I hope I never become so jaded that I cannot talk shop with someone of any level.

[cindavphoto]

I thought I'd take this opportunity to share with you all why I don't participate very much here anymore. Although I do still lurk quite a bit.

I simply quite critiquing or posting for critique because I felt it was all just starting to depend on who you are. A newb or a less seasoned proffesional can post a shot a be trashed for it. But if one of the photogods posted the same kind of shot, it was wonderful. For example....someone posted a senior shot that was kind of close, showed bare shoulders and implied she could be nude. He was told how wrong that was. How that was in bad taste. But a week or so later one of the photogods posted the same kind of shot, a senior with bare shoulders implying she could be nude but it was "wonderful". A beautiful shot. Now can somebody tell my why this was?? Why the newb who is trying to learn got trashed but the photogod was praised for doing the same thing? I've seen this several times so I just don't bother anymore. If confuses us who are trying to learn.

Cinnamon